Morris Residents: Come to a Debt Ceiling Deal
Concerned about impact on middle class, senior citizens.
Several Morris County residents fully expect Congressional Republicans and Democrats and President Obama to find a way to avoid the first-ever debt default by the U.S. government, yet they are concerned that middle-class families and senior citizens will feel the brunt of the pain if such an default occurs.
With the Aug. 2 deadline looming when the federal government won’t have enough cash on hand to pay the nation’s bills—unless political leaders come to a deal allowing the government to incur more debt—there is a sense of frustration among the county residents.
"Both sides need to get bargaining ... because it’s not good for either party if the country defaults," said Hilliard Hohn of Rockaway, who was at the Morristown & Morris Township Library. "No one wants to budge. If the country defaults, Social Security checks won’t go out and other payments. It would be political suicide for whoever did it."
Retired Morristown police officer Willie Caldwell noted the debt ceiling was raised seven times under President George W. Bush, "and it’s been raised 72 times since Kennedy."
"The only reason this is an issue is because Obama is a Democrat and he is black," Caldwell said. "This has to be done or else we’re kaput."
Devin Detomber, 14, of Morris Plains, said he has been following the issue off and on, and had watched a news report Wednesday morning. He said he was a little worried political leaders won’t reach a deal.
“It’s a complex question,” he said. “But I think the Aug. 2 deadline will make them come to a decision.“
Tom Vigilante, who was raised in Morristown and now lives in Florham Park, said, “When we are spending money faster than we can print it, we need to draw the line. My parents taught me when you make $10,000 don’t spend $30,000.”
Vigilante said he thinks the leaders make a deal.
On a default, he said, “I don’t think it will be as bad as reported if it happens. We’ll have to do without some services.”
Underlying his comments is a concern that the weak economy has altered the financial plans of many people like himself. “Even though I’m 65 and retired I have to work part time,” he said.
He even sees changes in the spending habits of the clients of the limousine company he works for. The company serves some of the region’s wealthier towns, the Mendhams, the Chesters and Bernardsville, among others.
"Most customers in those towns have more money than God," he said. "They used to hire a car to take them into the city for dinner, but they are cutting back. When they cut back, it must be bad."
All four said they have been following the debate to some degree.
Hohn said he follows the debate on Facebook and on talk radio.
“I’m interested in what they have to say about the debt,” he said. “It's interesting to keep abreast of where it’s going on and the impact on politics and the country.”
Caldwell said he’s “paying attention because it’s going to be bad.”
Vigilante and Detomber said they follow the debate with a little less passion, but pay attention when the story appears on the news.
The four also spread the blame for the stalemate—and the larger argument over raising taxes or cutting programs—across the political spectrum.
Vigilante said, “I’m a Republican. I‘m not in favor of the redistribution of wealth through taxing the rich. I believe it’s time for a flat tax. I mean if Tiger Woods makes $60 million a year, he’d pay more. How much money do you need?”
Caldwell, a self-described “liberal Democrat,” said the Republicans are to blame.
"They want to turn Medicare into vouchers," he said. "How long do they think people will last? Social Security and Medicare were put in place because old people could not get healthcare. The Republicans protect the party, the rich."
He said, “the Republican get the biggest share of the blame, based on the tax cuts. When Eisenhower was president the tax rate was 90 percent and he was considered a conservative Republican. He believed that the rich should do their part to help the country. Exxon and Mobil don’t need subsidies, especially when they are shipping more jobs overseas.”
Hohn said, “Instead of raising the debt ceiling, they should cut spending, maybe in defense, but not Medicare and Social Security.”
Detomber said he sees the points of both parties.
He does not want taxes raised, even for the rich, but does not want his grandparents and other who get Social Security to get hurt, either.
None of the four believe a default would leave no victims.
“Who gets hurt?“ Hohn asked. “Seniors and the middle class. A lot of people will get hurt.”
Detomber agreed. He said he was afraid a lot of the financial impact would fall on families like his.
Caldwell and Vigilante, political opposites, agreed on where the pain would fall.
“We all get hurt,” Vigilante said.
Caldwell said, “Everyone.”
MadInNJ
5:39 pm on Wednesday, July 13, 2011
Question for Mr. Caldwell - If, as you say, "The only reason this is an issue is because Obama is a Democrat and he is black," why did then Senator Obama vote against the Debt Limit increase when he had the opportunity to in 2006, saying, "The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. … Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that ‘the buck stops here. Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better."
He also had two more chances to vote for an increase when they were needed in 2007 & 2008, but skipped the votes both times. Not what one would really call "leadership."
Soccer Fan
11:08 pm on Thursday, July 14, 2011
Democrats love to play the race card. Their problem is that as MadInNJ points out, Obama is such a hypocrite. He's doing exactly what he complained about when he was a candidate. And he's getting called on it because he's a hypocrite, not because he's black.
Alice Jameson
6:46 pm on Wednesday, July 13, 2011
Democrats have such selective memories--must be something in that Kool-Aid they all drink.
MotownRepub
8:51 am on Thursday, July 14, 2011
our spending is historically approximately 19% of GDP, currently it is approximately 25%, this is the main problem under President Obama, and the Democratic controlled congress, our spending has skyrocketed. The debt under this president in less than three years is much more than eight years under Bush, so I ask my Democrat friends to please stop trying to avoid responsibility. Yes, Bush spent far too much as well, and we conservatives were never happy about it, but Obama has spent much, much (trillions) more. Another important point is that tax revenues have always remained somewhat consistent regardless of how much you try to punish the rich with confiscatory tax rates. In fact, for the rich, revenues actually increase when rates are lowered. It isn't about collecting tax revenues via higher rates, it is about expanding the economy, this is when overall revenues increase. I favor lower rates for all, and would in return accept the elimination of some deduction in return, but the bigger key to this debt ceiling issue is reducing spending.
Rev. Susan Gillespie
1:21 pm on Thursday, July 14, 2011
"Our spending has skyrocketed" - but not in a vacuum! We can't pretend that such spending was not precipitated by an enormous financial crash brought about by those who favor deregulation of the same entities who were so irresponsible. The innocent victims of that crash have availed themselves of unemployment insurance, food stamps and other parts of the safety net put in place for just such eventualities. It is disingenuous to pretend that somehow this administration is just spending money because that's what Democrats do. And it is not true that revenues increase when rates are lower - the very deficit we are discussing began with the Bush tax cuts. Rates were lowered, and revenues dropped. Hence, deficit. Unfunded wars were the other big driver. The problem didn't begin with govt social programs, and won't be fixed there, either.
Sir
1:33 pm on Thursday, July 14, 2011
48% do not pay taxes in this country - yet they are recipients of many of the social programs. Spreading the wealth is not the solution.
Dan Grant
5:38 pm on Thursday, July 14, 2011
Jerry, among that alledged 48% are multi-national corporations that pay no taxes because of loopholes and tax incentives that are not part of social programs, in fact things like Social Security, Medicare and Unemployment are all insurances that are paid for by the same people you deride. The Federal Government also gets revenue from things like gas, liquor, tobacco products which even low income people buy. It can't be disputed that the Bush policy of having wars and reducing taxes for the wealthy was a disaster. Bush ran the deficit up to $10 trillion and under the new President it has inceased to $14 Trillion. Unfortunately we were on a trajectory when the financial meltdown hit. I don't pretend to be an ecconomist but part of the increase in the percentage of GDP is because of a slowdown in consumer spending and every program which hits the middleclass hurts those consumers. State wide Christie just hit 550,000 public employees with up to $6000 in fees which will only go to pensions and insurance companies. Multiply out an average of $3000.00 per employee and you lose $1.5 billion from our local ecconomies that won't be spent buying products or services from small business in the State. That $1.5 Billion has a multiplier effect as well.
Soccer Fan
11:03 pm on Thursday, July 14, 2011
There will be no default if the debt ceiling is not raised. Each month, the federal treasury receives about $200 billion in revenue.
30 billion is the monthly payment of interest due on the national debt.
The remaining 170 billion is more than enough to pay for all federal entitlement and all non-discretionary spending. By statute and by the Constitution, Obama is required to pay the interest on the debt before anything else. He'll have the money for it.
By statute, he has to pay for all entitlements and non-discretionary programs.
As a moral obligation, he has to pay for all entitlements that the American people paid into and were promised.
He'll have the money for that, too.
He'll just have to cut about half of the non-discretionary spending.
Can Obama do that? Of course he can.
Will the American people miss it? No, certainly not over the time it will take to solve this problem once and for all.
Most discretionary spending is political and not the business of the federal government.
And why is Moody's threatening to cut the bond rating of the United States?
This is the same Moody's that had a top, triple-A rating on the bundled sub-prime mortgages on the day they failed.
It's because Moody's is one of the Wall St. stooges for Obama, and they want to join in on pressurizing Republicans.
Sir
1:03 am on Friday, July 15, 2011
Dan - I agree the loop holes need to be addressed. What we do not need are more personal income taxes - whether the middle class or high wage earners. The 48% that do not pay taxes are US Households, not corporations. Furthermore, The bottom 40 percent, on average, make a profit from the federal income tax, meaning they get more money in tax credits than they would otherwise owe in taxes. For those people, the government sends them a payment. When I hear people complain about the "Bush Tax Cuts" benefiting the wealthy, they don't realize these tax cuts were at all income levels. I also love how the dems are in support of a "millionaires tax". Guess what - the millionaries tax starts at $250,000. Last I checked that is about $750,000 short of a million. What we need is a simplifed tax code - where everyone, yes everyone pays in. We are in a precarious spot - people become accustomed to receiving something for nothing. This has to end.
Dan Grant
5:38 am on Friday, July 15, 2011
So Jerry you feel that in order to prevent more taxes on people in higher incomes that you want to take more money from people who live at or below the poverty level. There is no standard under which I would agree that those people are "Making a Profit" off the government and no moral standard under which I believe that people in survival mode should pay more so that some hedgefund manager can buy a bigger boat. Warren Buffet often talks about the top of the food chain paying too little in taxes and the fact that while he pays 16 % his secretary pays 30%. It is a fact of American history that the best of times in America for the middle class we had higher rates for top income earners. Buffet also points out that over the past 20 years the top 400 tax returns show a gain in income of 10 fold while their tax burden has dropped from 25% to 16 %. What I will never understand is why middle income people support putting a greater burden on themselves while insisting that the rich get richer.
V
8:45 am on Friday, July 15, 2011
Once you dismiss the urge to don the Robin Hood cape, you'll see that the answer is extremely easy. It is not about perceived "fairness", for which I personally don't give a flying patootie. The rich have the skills, the resources, and the liquidity that the middle class will never possess. When their taxes are increased, they either hire better lawyers to find new loopholes or, failing that, leave for greener pastures. As a result, everyone loses except the Caribbean or East European tax shelter where they settle.
Sir
12:44 pm on Friday, July 15, 2011
Dan - so what you are saying is lets penalize those who are successful? The reason Buffet pays less is because of loop holes. Lets reduce them. What the current administration doesn't stand is we have a serious spending problem. Tax increases are not the solution. The unemployment rate has doubled on average since Obama has been in office. We have far fewer people paying into the system. And back to Warren Buffet, while he did "only" pay 17% in taxes and his assistant paid 30%, he paid over $8,000,000 (yes, 8 million) in taxes last year and his assistant paid $30,000. The government can't be all things to all people, which we are trying to do. The problem was compunded with Bill Clinton, when he wanted everyone to be a homeowner. How did that turn out Bill?
Dan Grant
1:29 pm on Friday, July 15, 2011
To keep it straight unemployment didn't double. Bush left with about a 7.4 percent unemployment rate and the current rate is 9.2 (By the way NJ has gone up to 9.1 since Christie took over.) Bush lost almost 3 million private sector jobs in his last year in office. Obama bled private sector jobs for the first 6 months but has been in positive territory since 03/2010. Not where we need to be for sure but certainly better than where we were headed. We are not talking about punishing success simply returning to the tax rates that were in place in in the 90's and lower than they were under Reagan, who by the way raised taxes 11 times. I also remember Bush campaign Lit talking about his having increased home ownership. It is viewed as a measure of middleclass success to own a home but if you buy a $ 1 million home that is now worth $750,000 you can't blame minority home ownership. They didn't cause the housing bubble.
Sir
1:43 pm on Friday, July 15, 2011
I never mentioned minority home ownership in my comment and am offended that you would bring that into the discussion.
Sir
2:11 pm on Friday, July 15, 2011
Also - as a point of clarification these are the unemployment rates from 2001-current:
George Bush: 2001 4.7%, 2002 5.8%, 2003 6.0%, 2004 5.5%, 2005 5.1%, 2006 4.6%, 2007 4.6%, 2008 5.8%
Barack Obama: 2009 9.3%, 2010 9.6%, 2011 9.2%
Dan Grant
5:09 pm on Friday, July 15, 2011
I don't know where you got your numbers from but the best rate I can find fro Bush was 7.2 and I found some that went as high as 8.1 and those where from Republican site trying to defend him. The fact is that he lost 3.8 million jobs his last year and I don't think it is fair to count Obama's first two months in office. In any event we are where we are and there is no doubt that not rasising the debt celing on bill we have already incurred is totally wrong.
V
5:31 pm on Friday, July 15, 2011
Mr. Grant, I suggest you lay off reading Pravda and/or smoking crack. Here is official federal statistics, courtesy of Google and the Federal Bureau of Labor Statistics: http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS14000000. The highest number under Dubya is 6.6% which he only reached in October 2008, no doubt with massive help from the Dem Congress and the Wicked Witch of the West (a.k.a. Nancy Pelosi). PS: That said, I'm not a big fun of Dubya, either.
Dan Grant
5:42 pm on Friday, July 15, 2011
Well your number is getting higher so maybe you will get it right but in any event I don't think you can attribute Jan of 09 when the rate hit 8.5 percent as Obama was only president for 9 days. That was still Bush's watch.
V
7:01 pm on Friday, July 15, 2011
As much as I dislike the jug-eared dummy, I cannot blame him for the January '09 numbers. The blame squarely lies with his owner, George Soros.
Declan Keane
9:16 pm on Saturday, July 16, 2011
"The only reason this is an issue is because Obama is a Democrat and he is black," Caldwell said. Come on Willie, that is a poor argument and an empty excuse. Obama is only half black, right? He is a chameleon, black, white or any shade in between, his color varies to suit his needs.
Louis C. Hochman
10:37 am on Monday, July 18, 2011
Folks -- We've removed several comments from several people on this post. We encourage people to share their views, but ask them to keep things on-topic and civil.
We don't allow comments that promote racism, include personal insults, include open hostility to other users of the site, or go wildly off-topic for the purpose of going down any of those roads. The Internet's a big open space, and if that's what you'd like to do, there are plenty of forums that will allow it; we're not among them. We also don't consider inappropriate posts from another user to be a justification for leaving more. If you see a post you believe is inappropriate, please e-mail louis@patch.com, and we'll look at it as quickly as possible.
In the event the thread continues to be significantly off-topic, we'll close it to comments. We'll also consider suspending the accounts of any users who repeatedly engage in the type of behavior described above.
V
10:56 am on Monday, July 18, 2011
Mr. Hochman, I fully agree with you on the matter of personal insults as well as on posting off topic, but going as far as to erase an exact quotation from none other than Abraham Lincoln because it does not fit the official agenda smells of North Korean censure. I do expect better from both you and Patch.
Louis C. Hochman
5:00 pm on Monday, July 18, 2011
Some comments were also removed as a result of being part of a chain that was removed itself -- so in some cases, comments that are in and off themselves OK may be removed if they're part of an off-topic discussion we've eliminated here for the reasons we've described above.
We also remove any comments including profanity, or from a user account registered with a fake e-mail address.
cv
11:28 am on Monday, July 18, 2011
The point I was trying to make is that we are all some form of mutts. I am a third generation Italian my grandparents came here via ellis Island. Diversity is what makes this country what it is. I aplogize if my comment was taken the wrong way
Anonymous
5:10 pm on Monday, July 18, 2011
Btw, being proud of your race/culture and european roots shouldn't be banished or rubbed away as it's natural. If you allow blacks and other non-whites to do it, then don't be a hypocrite and not allow whites to do it as well.
cv: Italians are considered white as my original comment didn't apply to you.
Anonymous
4:45 pm on Monday, July 18, 2011
Mr. Hochman is fully involved in political correctness Max. What else would you expect when everyone wants to protect non-whites and other minority groups from the cold and honest truth. Mr. Hochman and others can't handle it when it's thrown in their face and let people honestly debate it but rather suppress it.
What I had said directly relates to the debt ceiling situation in regards to how this country was founded, what Abraham Lincoln wanted to do before he got assasinated (really wish he had the chance to do it) and how with the combined Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965 and The Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 we've had our country bankrupted through the years with high crime (with associated higher costs of police, incarceration and deportation) social entitlements for these 'people' (free public school education, grants and free healthcare to name a few) with illegals and supposed legals alike. Minority groups forcing banks and lenders to borrow to these non-whites brought on the eventual collapse of 2008 and subsequent second Great Depression. The politicians and rich/world banking elite want to drive this country into full bankruptncy raising the debt ceiling and we can no longer afford to have these non-whites and the rich get what they want.
There's no open hostility or personal insults here Mr. Hochman, just the simple truth. I dare you to leave my post so others can have a civil debate.
Anonymous
5:09 pm on Monday, July 18, 2011
Mr. Hochman is fully involved in political correctness Max. What else would you expect when everyone wants to protect non-whites and other minority groups from the cold and honest truth. Mr. Hochman and others can't handle it when it's thrown in their face and let people honestly debate it but rather suppress it.
What I had said directly relates to the debt ceiling situation in regards to how this country was founded, what Abraham Lincoln wanted to do before he got assasinated (really wish he had the chance to do it) and how with the combined Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965 and The Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 we've had our country bankrupted through the years with high crime (with associated higher costs of police, incarceration and deportation) social entitlements for these 'people' (free public school education, grants and free healthcare to name a few) with illegals and supposed legals alike. Minority groups forcing banks and lenders to borrow to these non-whites brought on the eventual collapse of 2008 and subsequent second Great Depression. The politicians and rich/world banking elite want to drive this country into full bankruptncy raising the debt ceiling and we can no longer afford to have these non-whites and the rich get what they want.
There's no open hostility or personal insults here Mr. Hochman, just the simple truth. I dare you to leave my post so others can have a civil debate.
V
5:19 pm on Monday, July 18, 2011
I'm willing to give Mr. Hochman the courtesy of the doubt. Validity of your position notwithstanding, it has little to do with the original topic. The matter of race was brought up by Dan Grant - a professional troll paid to dead-end discussions by degrading them into ad hominem exchanges - and was likely triggered by the word "owner" in reference to the relationship between Obama and Soros. Naturally, my position had nothing to with skin color - if you pay for something, you're supposed to own it - but shy of race card, Dems are very short on arguments these days.